Dangerous Pastors

Context

I found a series of seminary lectures from PRTS, and I like to know what’s being taught at our seminary, so I started listening. It’s good stuff. One of those lectures is by Pastor David Lipsy. It’s about a minister’s marriage and family, but the lecture is useful to any church member. It tells us interesting things about what we can expect, and not expect, from our ministers and their families.

Lecture Outline

1. Prayer
2. Scripture: 1 Timothy 3:1-12, Titus 1:1-9
3. Introduction: Your family life is important to God, and matters, especially as a minister.
4. Outline of the course: This lecture is just the first in a whole course.
5. Purposes of Marriage
   • Companionship and help: Ideally, the husband and wife complement each other well. This section sounds to me like very smart advice to anyone.
   • Children: These are God’s children, on loan to parents. Parents give an account to God. Useful context about not treating pastor’s kids as if they need to maintain a special reputation.
   • Reflect God’s relationships, first in the Trinity, and later as Christ and the Church
   • Moral preservation: warnings about sexual sin.
6. Children: Calling to ministry does not justify neglecting children.

A Warning to Pastors

The part at 44:33-48:08 especially drew my attention.

I want to just quote to you a survey, that was taken … of 1,000 pastors who are ministers of local congregations – this was done by a rather famous Christian magazine. “23% of pastors admitted to having done something they considered sexually inappropriate with someone other than their spouse – nearly a quarter of them. 61% said they fantasize about others than their spouses.” There are built-in dangers in the ministry in this regard. Now, I think a little bit of sanctified wisdom tells us that when we’re counselling women, particularly those near our age, it’s good to have open access to the room. I always have my wife involved whenever possible. You don’t want to put yourself in a compromising position. But there’s something else to be aware of. Many times women will come to you because of issues with their spouses, and if you’re going to be Christ-like toward them, well you’re going to be understanding, and you’re going to be sympathetic, and you’re going to be godly, and you’re going to be – well, you’re going to be everything that this woman’s husband isn’t. And there’s a built-in potential there for the dynamics to shift from counselor-counselee, pastor-parishioner to something else. And it’s happened many times. Beginning in the spirit, so to speak, and ending in the flesh. And I want to make you aware of that. You might not even consider such a dynamic, but it’s built into the process.

I remember a minister, who’s still alive today, was in a counselling situation with a woman who made it very obvious her interest in him. And doing what he ought to do, he rebuffed her advances. And because he hadn’t taken safeguards in where he met with her, and under what conditions, she basically told him, “I’m going to ruin your ministry.” And she proceeded, quite like Potiphar’s wife, to weave a whole story about what took place, and it never did, and he almost was brought out of the ministry. He was eventually vindicated, but he could have avoided a great deal of trouble, simply by using precautions, by being sensitive to these things. So when we talk about the moral preservation aspect of marriage, I want you to realize that part of our very calling is dealing with people who have awful marriages – people who are not happy – people who are in great danger. And it’s very easy for us to go from sympathy, understanding, to something else. And you need to be aware of that. Again, it’s very helpful sometimes, even for the lady herself, to have your spouse there because she’ll understand maybe better than we do, some of the dynamics that are being brought across. So we need moral preservation, maybe more than we think.

A Warning to Women

I think it is an interesting exercise to rephrase that into a warning for women who go to their pastors for counsel.

I want to just quote to you a survey, that was taken … of 1,000 pastors who are ministers of local congregations – this was done by a rather famous Christian magazine. “23% of pastors admitted to having done something they considered sexually inappropriate with someone other than their spouse – nearly a quarter of them. 61% said they fantasize about others than their spouses.” There are built-in dangers in the ministry in this regard. Now, I think a little bit of sanctified wisdom tells us that when we’re going to a pastor for counsel, particularly those near our age or older, it’s good to have open access to the room. It might be useful to have the pastor’s wife involved, or your own husband. You don’t want to put yourself in a compromising position. But there’s something else to be aware of. It’s possible that you will come to a pastor because of issues with your spouse, and if he’s going to act Christ-like toward you, well he’s going to act understanding, and he’s going to act sympathetic, and he’s going to act godly, and he’s going to act – well, he’s going to act like everything that your husband isn’t. And there’s a built-in potential there for the dynamics to shift from counselor-counselee, pastor-parishioner to something else. And it’s happened many times. Beginning in the spirit, so to speak, and ending in the flesh. And I want to make you aware of that. You might not even consider such a dynamic, but it’s built into the process.

I think of Lori Anne Thompson, whose relationship with Ravi Zacharias started with him as a mentor and father figure. She confided in him about her childhood and abuse by her father. Once he gained her trust, he proceeded, much like one of the sons of Eli, to use his spiritual authority to exploit her. After some time, she realized what was happening, and doing what she ought to do, she confessed to her husband, and confronted Zacharias. Instead of repenting, he told a whole story alleging that she was trying to extort him. Meanwhile, life as she knew it was ripped apart. I think of Iain D. Campbell, who abused many women of his congregation. I want you to realize that if you are going to a pastor for counsel, you may be dealing with an awful marriage. You are probably not happy. You might be in great danger. And it’s very easy for pastors to go from sympathy, understanding, to something else. And you need to be aware of that. Again, it’s very helpful sometimes to have your pastor’s spouse there because she’ll understand maybe better than your pastor does, some of the dynamics that are being brought across. So pastors need moral preservation, maybe more than we think.

I’m not really experienced enough to be confident about whether this paraphrased advice is good. In real life, I have plenty of individual meetings with male colleagues, and I haven’t noticed anything. It doesn’t feel weird or creepy or dangerous to me. At any rate, minimizing risk does not remove it entirely, because the pastor’s wife might be in denial so that she’s unable to see what’s happening. Adding more bystanders might not stop the bully. But I am confident that getting marriage help or spiritual guidance matters. Your problems are important. And, if your pastor gives any indication that he’s using his position of power to satisfy his lusts, run. Run away fast. That’s called clergy sex abuse. It’s so bad, that even the ungodly culture around us knows that it’s wrong. (2 Samuel 12:14, 1 Corinthians 5:1-8, 1 Timothy 3:7) God hates it when leaders use their authority to devour vulnerable people. (Ezekiel 34:2-4, Matthew 23:14) You, dear Christian, are His prized possession, paid for with Jesus’ blood. (1 Peter 2:9-10, John 17:6-12) As God’s precious child, you deserve so much better. You have other options for help. Maybe a counsellor or mental health professional maybe a local women’s centre, maybe a wise older Christian, whatever is relevant to the problem.

Other Interesting Pieces

Some other interesting pieces caught my attention.

Women Just Don’t Get It

At 52:03-52:20

One of the greatest difficulties, particularly when it comes to sins against the seventh commandment is that most women have a very difficult time understanding them – mental adultery, pornography, just the visual attractive tendencies that men have that women may not be able to readily identify with.

I’ve heard this idea so often that it sounds like common sense. I just haven’t figured out how to reconcile it with the evidence that many Christian women struggled with porn.

Married to a Pedophile

At 57:28-58:25

I remember when I was a principal, we had a case – it was really an incredibly difficult situation, and I found out about it after the fact – where an older man who had been an elder for many years, at this point in his life was a janitor of our school, that turned out where he abused some younger girls in the school. And I remember puzzling over that, thinking, “What in the world was in this man’s mind, to do these things?” But then as I reflected upon that, I realized, and it was sad to say, but his marriage wasn’t anything what it should have been. Now, I’m not saying that gave him an excuse to do what he did, but I’m thinking I could imagine where the dysfunctional relationship he had with his wife, at least tempted him to go outside of the boundaries of marriage, in these very sinful and inappropriate ways.

I have no other information than this short summary. Personally, I can’t help but wonder the opposite thing. I’m wondering whether his perversion caused marriage problems. Poor woman.

Response

After I wrote all this, I sent it to Pastor Lipsy, because I wanted his opinion on it before publishing, especially because it’s a lecture from so long ago.

I think you’ve done a great job personalizing a number of the things I said for the benefit of women. I would just add a couple of comments…

You wrote that, as an alternative to a questionable pastor, “Maybe a counsellor or mental health professional maybe a local women’s centre, maybe a wise older Christian, whatever is relevant to the problem.” I would add, just be aware that these professionals are human beings also. If possible, a woman counselor might be more helpful in such situations. In any event, make sure whatever situation a woman puts herself in with a counselor, there are appropriate safeguards for her protection.

In response to your comment with respect to 52:03-52:20, those remarks were generalizations made thirteen years ago. A lot has changed since then. Though there’s not yet a lot of research I’ve seen yet on a woman’s use of pornography, it’s probably safe to say that, at the very least, porn’s physiological effects on a woman’s brain will be similar to that of a man. Porn use has been shown to have similar addictive properties to some narcotics. So whether the motivation to begin watching porn differs depending on one’s gender, the physiologically addicting effects will be similar in both.

I agree with your comments about the pedophile at the end of your blog. It could certainly have been as you suggested - the man spoiling his own marital relationship with his wife through his perversion. However, knowing this couple as I did, I recall how she defended the reputation of a minister who clearly had severe seventh-commandment issues, and did so simply because she believed God had blessed the man’s preaching for her personally. It is heartbreaking how much abuse takes place under the guise of spirituality. Books like “The Wounded Heart” by Dan Allender might prove helpful for those who have been affected in these ways.